Small arms fire vs vehicles

Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Grumpymoose » 19 Aug 2016

Hope you can help.

Bit of a noob question

Am I right in saying that small arms fire can have no impact on armed vehicles with direct fire? So apart from the rate of fire a .50 cal has the same impact as a rifle (or have I lost something in translation?)

Also what impact do they have on soft skinned vehicles?

Many thanks

Karl
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Powermonger » 19 Aug 2016

Hi Karl:

Yes, you re right. Only Area fire with small arms against AFV.
In order to have a chance of pinning an enclosed AFV, you need at least 5 RoF (and roll a 6!). That´s an amount of fire equivalent to 5 bolt action rifles or a MMG in the rules.
If a single rifle was firing, it has a RoF of 1 and could do nothing against the enclosed AFV-
A 0.50 cal has no penetratioon value in the rules, so cannot do aimed fire against AFV´s. If you want to give a 0.50 some penetration power give it a value of 1 up to 10 or 20 inches.

Against soft skinned vehicles you can do both area and aimed fire. Area fire is resolved in the area fire table (soft skin column). Aimed fire is resolved as normal. Roll 1 dice per RoF to hit. Each vehicle has a number of hits (ie a medium truck has 3). When your truck reach that number it is destroyed.

Regards,

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Chris S » 19 Aug 2016

Autocannons, as well as being included in the small arms table, also have HE and AP values, which will be listed in the charts at the back of the relevant supplement, and so against armoured targets it might be better to use that kind of direct fire

Damage to soft vehicles from small arms is explained in the bottom right corner of p.25 of the mini rules book and damage to any passengers is explained on p.26

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Grumpymoose » 19 Aug 2016

That's great, thanks.

It's what I thought, and how we've been playing. Coming from a Flames of War background a 0.50 cal could stand a decent chance of shooting up a German halftrack... good idea if I wanted to increase AP at close range.

I'm guessing the vehicle stat line will say if it has an autocannon or not

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Chris S » 19 Aug 2016

Grumpymoose wrote:
I'm guessing the vehicle stat line will say if it has an autocannon or not

Karl


Not quite. The vehicle stat line will tell you what kind of gun is carried. Then, if you look at the gun data for your army they are blocked into categories. The autocannons are usually the second of these blocks, coming after mortars.

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Grumpymoose » 19 Aug 2016

Ah, yes I can see

Ta :)
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Isegrim » 11 Jul 2017

Hi.

I still have questions how to handle the autocannons when shooting aimed fire. Lets take the 20mm with ROF 6 and AP 2 until 20'' / AP 1 until 50''.

a) Autocannons are small arms. So when shooting I use 6 D6 to hit. For example: up to 6 hits against an armoured vehicle with penetration 2 at 20''.

or

b) Should I use the rule "aimed fire with armour piercing shells"? So I can only use a single D6. That means max one hit with penetration.

And what about shooting at infantry or soft-skinned vehicles? Is it up to my decision to shoot as "small arms" or "armour piercing"?

Against infantry I would use "small arms", because I could get up to 6 hits instead of one.

Using "small arms", against soft-skinned vehicles I could get up to 6 hits, but such a vehicle hat up to 5 hitpoints.
Using "armour piercing", I will have only one shot, but if it scores, it destroys the vehicle.
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Brodir » 11 Jul 2017

The answer is b. Its aimed fire with AP at an armoured vehicle, just like an AT gun. You use ROF for aimed fired with small arms at infantry. You can choose to do either vs soft skins, but most use ROF for multiple hits, but you could use AP value vs SS on the AP chart (or HE value for that matter). Very versatile weapons, they are effective (to some degree) against most targets.
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Isegrim » 11 Jul 2017

Thanks!
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Number4 » 23 Aug 2017

Grumpymoose wrote:Am I right in saying that small arms fire can have no impact on armed vehicles with direct fire? So apart from the rate of fire a .50 cal has the same impact as a rifle (or have I lost something in translation?)


As the new Tobruk book gives the British 15mm BESA (which was essentially a single shot weapon) an AP value of 1 it would make sense to give the same rating to the Browning .50 as a house rule.
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Pedro » 23 Aug 2017

Hi

I find the "Damage to Transported Troops" (Rule book page 28) confusing. The second paragraph has units inside a soft skin suffering D3 each (heaven help a one or two man team!) but this is not reflected in the example last sentence of the following page where they only suffer excess casualties as per para 1.

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Greystreak » 23 Aug 2017

I have the same query as Peter (above), due to a situation arising in a game last night:

Are D3 casualties taken (no saves) when a transporting vehicle is destroyed in addition to 'excess hits' (with soft cover saves) above the vehicle's damage capacity? [Reference: Battlegroup Rulebook (H/C 2nd Edition), page 28, "Damage to Transported Troops".]
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby triccor2 » 23 Aug 2017

Yes, you have to consider both the effects on transported unit: excess hits above vehicle damage capacity AND D3 casualities.

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Powermonger » 23 Aug 2017

Hi! This has been clarified before.
You take the D3 casualties after the excess hits. Also remember to take a morale test.
Just to exemplify:

A sdkfz 11 (softskin half track) is carrying a full german section. That's a 3-man MG34 squad, and a 6-man rifle team.

It got ambushed in the open by a soviet Maxim MMG at 19" distamce. The maxim gets an open fire order. The soviets decide they would be 2 aimed fire shots.
They roll to observe, getting a 2 & 6. Both succesfull.
First shot is: 1,5, 2, 3, 3. Only one hit is scored (it needs a 4+ up to 20"), no saves allowed. The sdkfz 11 suffers one hit. But he can withstamd 3 hits before it is destroyed. So, he takes 1 hit. Howewer, it must roll morale, as being a softskin vehicle that was hit. It rolls a 4, so its ok.
Second shot: is 2, 5, 4, 4, 6. 4 hits are scored. The first 2 hits go to the half-track, which is now effectively destroyed. The excess hits go to the passengers, who get soft cover save. 1 men in each team is killed (roll randomly which tea is hit). Do not roll infantry morale yet.

Now after excess hits are resolved, roll a D3 additional casualties from shock & trauma. Again, determine randomly which squad gets harmed. No saves allowed.
Soviets roll a 3 (meaning a 2 result on a D3). Two germans are dead. Both from rifle squad (determine each hit randomly).

Now, the remaining passengers (2 men from MG crew, and 3 from rifle team) are disembarke, PINNED, up to 4" inches from the wreck.

As a final step, both teams must check for morale.this morale test is independent of having lost any figures. They must check because their transport was destroyed.

The germans roll a 2 for the MG34 team and a 5 for the rifle squad. So, the MG team routs and is destroyed (because is already pinned). The rifle team stays, but pinned..

Now the germans take two BR chits, one from the destroyed vehicle and other for the destroyed MG team.

Hope that helps,

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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Greystreak » 23 Aug 2017

Very clear, Diego--thanks! :good:
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Number4 » 15 Sep 2017

Powermonger wrote:Just to exemplify: A sdkfz 11 (softskin half track) is carrying a full German section. That's a 3-man MG34 squad, and a 6-man rifle team.
It got ambushed in the open by a soviet Maxim MMG at 19" distance. The maxim gets an open fire order. The soviets decide they would be 2 aimed fire shots. They roll to observe, getting a 2 & 6. Both successful.
Diego


You follow each part of the order to its conclusion, that includes observation. So the Maxim crew rolls once to observe, then resolves the first shot including enemy casualties and morale, before rolling again to reacquire the target for the second shot.

It would also be highly unusual to have infantry riding in a sdkfz 11 artillery vehicle, although there was an engineer version
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Powermonger » 15 Sep 2017

You are right in both points.
However, we did resolve the fire actions that way every time. It speeds up the game a lot. If something happens in between the fire actions (like a Btcod) then, we just resolve it before continuing to the second fire action. Nothing is changed from the rules, just rolling the two observations together to speed up play. The only (border) case where it can change is if your fire reduced a uhit to less than 4 men (and you are making two aimed shots).
Regarding the sdkfz 11, i chose it on purpose. I wanedt an example that was both a softskin and half-track. It could been another, but was the first that came into mind.
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Brodir » 15 Sep 2017

We roll both spots at once as well, if its a double shot at 1 target, for speed.
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Re: Small arms fire vs vehicles

Postby Number4 » 16 Sep 2017

Powermonger wrote:The only (border) case where it can change is if your fire reduced a uhit to less than 4 men (and you are making two aimed shots).


Well there is one other thing - you could roll a 6 for that second spot and if the target is destroyed or retreats first time, wasting a 6 is a real bummer! :grin:
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