Min Maxing in BG?

Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Troy » 13 Jul 2017

Confession time:

I hate min-maxing. I don't play collectible card games anymore (played the first two years of MTG - dumped it as I grew to dislike the killer-combo maxing the game encouraged).

I loved other war games that ended in "hammer" -but gave them up when the rules kept going for killer character/spell/weapon/item combos.

So, what are the killer combos in BattleGroup?

I'm still learning rules, and haven't done a very deep dive into the various battle books. So I'm not even sure how to approach min-maxing in this game.

Does one just take a lot of units that can suppression fire and try to pin other units?

Is there even such a concept in list building for Battle Group as min-maxing?

So far I haven't seen how one would min/max. But, you know there's always someone who's keyed into the meta of a game better than anyone else. :grin:
User avatar
Troy
Donald 'RED' Grant
 
Posts: 30

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby wargameroz » 13 Jul 2017

Don't even know what you mean, but these are for real games and beat the crap out of those other horrors you mentioned. You should take the time to read the information in the books and try to understand, otherwise you might be better off with FoW or Bolt Action (shudder) until you mature a bit
he who dies with the largest pile of unpainted figures wins
wargameroz
Goldfinger
 
Posts: 2890
Medals: 8
Recce campaigner (1) Green Campaigner (1) AntiTank Campaigner (1) Easter14 Campaigner (1) 2013 Build (1) 2014 build (1)
2015 build campaigner (1) 2016 build campaigner (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Troy » 13 Jul 2017

LOL...

I just put FoW behind me because of their new cards of doom and broken conversion stats for the old books.
User avatar
Troy
Donald 'RED' Grant
 
Posts: 30

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Piers » 13 Jul 2017

Jeez... take it easy Simon... say what you really think! :blackeye:

Troy,

You haven't seen how you can 'min-max' in Battlegroup, cos you cant really. The list dont really let you and the scenarios can punish it, as will the game and a sensible opponent.

Its not that sort of game... indeed its designed to try and stop such things and force historical style forces on its players.

All units can use suppresion fire. As for 'killer Combos', I've never used the same list twice to find any. Some infantry, some tanks and some arty works ok...

And I have no idea what a meta is or what I'd do with one if I did... :grin:
 ‘Landed. Killed Germans. F***ed off.’ - Major Anders Lassen's operational report to the Admiralty.
'...its not a realistic expectation, that you can use a tank as a sort of big 'fruit-squashing' machine' - Woz
User avatar
Piers
Dominic Greene
 
Posts: 23604
Medals: 41
Capt Campaigner (1) Cav Campaigner (1) Arty 1st place (1) Comm 2nd place (1) Sur1 campaigner (1) Afloat Campaigner (1)
England Campaigner (1) Flak Campaigner (1) Comms Campaigner (1) Armour 3rd place (1) Terrain2 1st place (1) fortified 1st place (1)
Recce 2nd place (1) Leader Campaigner (1) Casualty 1st place (1) Female Campaigner (1) Sniper Campaigner (1) 40mm 2nd place (1)
Wings Campaigner (1) POW Campaigner (1) Truck Campaigner (1) 30mm 1st place (1) Red Campaigner (1) Green 1st place (1)
AntiTank Campaigner (1) Easter14 2nd place (1) 60mm 2nd place (1) Lib Minis 1st (1) Terrain Campaigner (1) Brit Minis 2nd place (1)
Scen1 Campaigner (1) Big Game 2010 (1) 2010 Build (1) 2011 Build (1) 2012 Build (1) 2013 Build 3rd place (1)
xmas15 2nd place (1) xmas14 campaigner (1) 2014 build 3rd place (1) 2015 build 2nd place (1) 2016 build 2nd place (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Troy » 13 Jul 2017

Thanks Piers:

For those unfamiliar with the concept, here's a piece on WWPD about Meta and "power gaming" in war games.

http://www.wwpd.net/2016/06/myth-busting-meta-in-flames-of-war.html

and here's the response I wrote for it:

http://www.wwpd.net/2016/06/iron-sharpens-iron-meta-gaming-courtesy.html

Meta basically has two versions of its definition:

1. The underlying principles of the rules, the basis of how the game is structured. All games have this. Even Yahtzee and Old Maid.
2. The idea of creating a force or deck or whatever that maximized one's abilities, while minimizing one's weakness in a game.

I had one player, known for his King Tiger and Elefant lists explain his min/maxing this way: "I try to take away as many of my opponent's abilities to Save his own teams, or neutralize as many of his forces (eg a 6 pdr trying to penetrate a KT) as possible." He wanted to be as close to winning as possible before figures hit the table.

For those who haven't had to endure Min/Maxing, count yourselves lucky. I always hate losing because my opponent out thought me in list design. I'd like to actually roll dice and make bad deployment or tactical decisions before I lose. ;)

I had hoped that BattleGroup was the exception to this concept, and on-table strategy and luck were the predominant factors in playing. Sounds like it is! :yahoo:
User avatar
Troy
Donald 'RED' Grant
 
Posts: 30

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby hincmar » 13 Jul 2017

I'm not even sure that I regard Battlegroup as a competitive rule system at all so "min/maxing" doesn't really come into it! Might just be the crowd I roll dice with, but the best games we have played are those that we are happy to call a draw - the closer the better. When one side "wins" by a wide margin, it feels disappointing. It's the re-enactment of the history - sticking as close as possible to the actual orbats - and application of realistic tactics (if that is ever truly possible in an abstracted miniatures game) that appeal to me. The fog of war that is built into the system tends to level things out anyway. No point sinking points into an expensive Konigstiger or Elefant if it is going to be pinned every turn (if not destroyed) by a battery of off-board howitzers!
Last edited by hincmar on 13 Jul 2017, edited 1 time in total.
hincmar
Largo
 
Posts: 3811
Medals: 3
Flak Campaigner (1) Big Game 2011 (1) xmas15 1st place (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Piers » 13 Jul 2017

Yer... Battlegroup kinda tries to remove as much of a players ability to control proceedings as possible. Its why it isnt a 'tourney' game and why powergamers tend to shy away from it. You dont get to control everything and with the scenarios you dont get your army where you want it all at once.

From its lists, its mechanics, its scenarios to the chits, its all designed to make you try to tactically battle your opponent, the objectives and at times, your own army. You rarely get to do all you want in Battlegroup and often, when you think you are winning, is when things start to go wrong. Its a very narrative style of play, each game builds its own story and as the forces used tend to be historically based, it gives a feel for the period thats further enhanced by the ability to use proper tactics and have that historical list selection rewarded...

But with Battlegroup, like in real war, sometimes it don't matter what you do... sometimes Lady Luck will dump on you. :grin:


Then there is the historical scenarios...
User avatar
Piers
Dominic Greene
 
Posts: 23604
Medals: 41
Capt Campaigner (1) Cav Campaigner (1) Arty 1st place (1) Comm 2nd place (1) Sur1 campaigner (1) Afloat Campaigner (1)
England Campaigner (1) Flak Campaigner (1) Comms Campaigner (1) Armour 3rd place (1) Terrain2 1st place (1) fortified 1st place (1)
Recce 2nd place (1) Leader Campaigner (1) Casualty 1st place (1) Female Campaigner (1) Sniper Campaigner (1) 40mm 2nd place (1)
Wings Campaigner (1) POW Campaigner (1) Truck Campaigner (1) 30mm 1st place (1) Red Campaigner (1) Green 1st place (1)
AntiTank Campaigner (1) Easter14 2nd place (1) 60mm 2nd place (1) Lib Minis 1st (1) Terrain Campaigner (1) Brit Minis 2nd place (1)
Scen1 Campaigner (1) Big Game 2010 (1) 2010 Build (1) 2011 Build (1) 2012 Build (1) 2013 Build 3rd place (1)
xmas15 2nd place (1) xmas14 campaigner (1) 2014 build 3rd place (1) 2015 build 2nd place (1) 2016 build 2nd place (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby dead1 » 13 Jul 2017

Oh I hate the concept of meta. It's a plague created by the GW tournament scene and eagerly embraced by the BA and FOW tournie crowds. It's fed by bad rules design that emphasises game breaking special rules and "balanced" points (clue: they're never balanced hence min-maxing, power gaming etc).

Thanks the heavens that Battlegroup has none of this. And thanks the heavens the system deters tournament types who can't stand it's random order system and equally random BR system. I ran BGK when it came out and the local FOW crowd didn't like it one at all except my brother who like me is a narrative player.

Troy wrote:Thanks Piers:

For those unfamiliar with the concept, here's a piece on WWPD about Meta and "power gaming" in war games.

http://www.wwpd.net/2016/06/myth-busting-meta-in-flames-of-war.html


I guess the author hasn't figured out that nominally FOW is meant to be a game based on some historical thing called WWII. He seems to just be justifying bad behaviour.

Meta wargaming has another name attached to it that's less flattering: Win At All Costs.

I've seen it done (including being on the receiving end) and it does not make it a fun game for the opponent especially when the opponent tailors his force to smashing the opponent. Meta wargaming also results in cookie cutter lists and tedious game play.

I can't stress how much I hate this concept as it promotes a lot of bad behaviour and lack of friendly atmosphere.
dead1
Mayday
 
Posts: 811
Medals: 1
2014 build (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby z1pp132002 » 13 Jul 2017

I think Piers and all the others have summed it up nicely. It is not a tournament ruleset and therefore none of those min\maxing situations. As mentioned in a previous thread your group you play with largley determine the quality of experience. So if they are a group playing for fun and still bringing in the historical factor any ruleset will be enjoyable. If they are power gamers well you no the result. Yes it has a random order system but it is not a constant and varies and this sets it apart from other IGOUGO systems. I don't like IGOUGO systems with the exception to BG's as it varies. Warwick and Piers truly re-invented the wheel on this one.
z1pp132002
Nick Nack
 
Posts: 329

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby hincmar » 13 Jul 2017

Is the prefix "meta" even an appropriate term in this second context? When I see it, I think of metaphysics or metatextuality, in the sense of the abstract principles or analysis that underlie philosophy or written texts. The second context that is cited is about exploiting a set of rules for a limited practical purpose - to win. That is the reverse of the original meaning of "meta". Is this another example of the modern tendency to misappropriate terms that have a long-established or even classical meaning to intellectualise and/or justify a particular kind of "new" behaviour, gadget etc.
hincmar
Largo
 
Posts: 3811
Medals: 3
Flak Campaigner (1) Big Game 2011 (1) xmas15 1st place (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby wargameroz » 13 Jul 2017

dead1 wrote:Oh I hate the concept of meta. It's a plague created by the GW tournament scene and eagerly embraced by the BA and FOW tournie crowds. It's fed by bad rules design that emphasises game breaking special rules and "balanced" points (clue: they're never balanced hence min-maxing, power gaming etc).

Thanks the heavens that Battlegroup has none of this. And thanks the heavens the system deters tournament types who can't stand it's random order system and equally random BR system. I ran BGK when it came out and the local FOW crowd didn't like it one at all except my brother who like me is a narrative player.

Troy wrote:Thanks Piers:

For those unfamiliar with the concept, here's a piece on WWPD about Meta and "power gaming" in war games.

http://www.wwpd.net/2016/06/myth-busting-meta-in-flames-of-war.html


I guess the author hasn't figured out that nominally FOW is meant to be a game based on some historical thing called WWII. He seems to just be justifying bad behaviour.

Meta wargaming has another name attached to it that's less flattering: Win At All Costs.

I've seen it done (including being on the receiving end) and it does not make it a fun game for the opponent especially when the opponent tailors his force to smashing the opponent. Meta wargaming also results in cookie cutter lists and tedious game play.

I can't stress how much I hate this concept as it promotes a lot of bad behaviour and lack of friendly atmosphere.



:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
wargameroz
Goldfinger
 
Posts: 2890
Medals: 8
Recce campaigner (1) Green Campaigner (1) AntiTank Campaigner (1) Easter14 Campaigner (1) 2013 Build (1) 2014 build (1)
2015 build campaigner (1) 2016 build campaigner (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby wargameroz » 13 Jul 2017

Piers wrote:Jeez... take it easy Simon... say what you really think! :blackeye:


Piers

If I said what I really thunked I'd be banned for life ;) :hello:

Simon
wargameroz
Goldfinger
 
Posts: 2890
Medals: 8
Recce campaigner (1) Green Campaigner (1) AntiTank Campaigner (1) Easter14 Campaigner (1) 2013 Build (1) 2014 build (1)
2015 build campaigner (1) 2016 build campaigner (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Ray » 13 Jul 2017

wargameroz wrote:
Piers wrote:Jeez... take it easy Simon... say what you really think! :blackeye:


Piers

If I said what I really thunked I'd be banned for life ;) :hello:

Simon


You and me both mate :lol:
SOTCW 118
Ray Haskins
Fulltime figure painter.
No Job too small or big.
10% Discount to fellow Guilders.
User avatar
Ray
Kananga
 
Posts: 5107
Medals: 6
Armour Campaigner (1) Terrain2 Campaigner (1) Recce campaigner (1) Ambulance campaigner (1) quick campaigner (1) 2015 build campaigner (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Piers » 13 Jul 2017

Best not then gents.

Not a good way to encourage new players. ;)
User avatar
Piers
Dominic Greene
 
Posts: 23604
Medals: 41
Capt Campaigner (1) Cav Campaigner (1) Arty 1st place (1) Comm 2nd place (1) Sur1 campaigner (1) Afloat Campaigner (1)
England Campaigner (1) Flak Campaigner (1) Comms Campaigner (1) Armour 3rd place (1) Terrain2 1st place (1) fortified 1st place (1)
Recce 2nd place (1) Leader Campaigner (1) Casualty 1st place (1) Female Campaigner (1) Sniper Campaigner (1) 40mm 2nd place (1)
Wings Campaigner (1) POW Campaigner (1) Truck Campaigner (1) 30mm 1st place (1) Red Campaigner (1) Green 1st place (1)
AntiTank Campaigner (1) Easter14 2nd place (1) 60mm 2nd place (1) Lib Minis 1st (1) Terrain Campaigner (1) Brit Minis 2nd place (1)
Scen1 Campaigner (1) Big Game 2010 (1) 2010 Build (1) 2011 Build (1) 2012 Build (1) 2013 Build 3rd place (1)
xmas15 2nd place (1) xmas14 campaigner (1) 2014 build 3rd place (1) 2015 build 2nd place (1) 2016 build 2nd place (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Brodir » 13 Jul 2017

Games such as FOW, BA and many others have all appropriated the Warhammer model, that rules design can be used to drive miniature sales. The sale of miniatures makes these companies their money, and fair enough, they have to make money. WH40K is highly profitable, it makes GW a lot of money over many years, it hasn't been a flash in the pan. The other companies (and bear in mind they are largely ex-GW staff) know this, know the idea and how it was done, and try and recreate it. FoW (and BA) are 40K... they just use WW2 rather than create their own intellectual property, because its far easier and cheaper. Nobody owns the IP for a Sherman tank or Tiger... and no conceptual design work is required, which is hard to do, costly and takes time, and very talented people. Hnec why so many gaming compnaies use licences... a viable short cut.

BG isn't from this model. I wrote the game already owning large 20mm WW2 armies, as the game I wanted to play with them, driven by frustration with other rulesets. I had no interest in driving miniature sales with it, at first concept it was not for commercial purposes, just mine. I always felt that if people enjoyed the game enough, they'd buy miniatures anyway (from anywhere), the game's rules didn't need to push it along. Just playing with the cool models would somehow be enough.

So the idea that somewhere a 'meta' (urgh!) exists is false. It just doesn't. The game and list were designed not to allow it, it ruined 40K for me and is why I have zero interest in FoW or others of its ilk. It is a different model of wargaming, coming out of a far more 'traditional' wargaming hobby I knew in the late 70s and 80s, not the GW commercial one that dominates today. It's about collecting, painting and playing with historical toys soldiers, not winning games.

Wargaming as a 'competitive sport' has always left me cold... if you want that experience, join a football or rugby (or other sports) club, you'll get all the competitiveness you can handle... and rightly so. First and foremost, wargaming (like all tabletop gaming) is a social-experience. One might even claim it is the reason they were invented in the first place.
User avatar
Brodir
Dr No
 
Posts: 1281

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby mellis1644 » 13 Jul 2017

Some people love the winning and ultra competitive play. You find some games are designed more for them. For example Warmahordes (Hordes/Warmaster by privateer press) used to even emphasize that aspect in their rules. I believe they have backed off a bit from that now but it's still there. You see that with them tweaking the rules every few months to stop one thing dominating the tournaments.

Oh and that's where the meta concept really kicks in - tournaments. X-wing, Magic/card games and Warmahordes are all games forced on that. As mentioned FoW, BA and GW games follow that suite, although maybe not quite to the same degree. A balanced points system is key to this. We all know that never happens and that's the core item. The concept of the meta is what is the best 'bang for buck' in the current points system.

Although not an ultra competitive player at times for a day I have enjoyed such events. But they are a very different thing than other types of gaming,

BG though is not a tournament game. The only fighting matched historical lists is a factor and that reduces the issues with points - but it's still there if you really want to do that. But the lists restrict it a great deal and the variety of options an opponent can chose from and randomness in the game will mean it much harder to keep a killer combination force over multiple games. So I think you are safe in BG from min/max issues for the most part, from what I have seen so far.
mellis1644
Three Blind Mice
 
Posts: 11

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby dead1 » 13 Jul 2017

Great post Brodir.

The miniature sales factors cannot be ignored from any discussion of rules. GW was notorious for upgrading rules for units with new models. FOW did it to lesser degree.

The perpetual reduction in points in each revision whilst upping the standard points played is another example of using rules to boost model sales. This led to "horde meta" dominance and appropriate rules to promote such units.

A great example is FOW artillery. You used to bring a 2-4 gun battery. Then the points decreased whilst units and rules were upgraded so as to sell models. In the end it was common to see 12 guns/howitzers on the table (this in a company level wargame with usual 2 infantry platoons). Then there were complaints of artillery spam so they change the rules again and thus force the compliant fan base to buy yet more new models to stay competitive.
dead1
Mayday
 
Posts: 811
Medals: 1
2014 build (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Brodir » 13 Jul 2017

GW was notorious for upgrading rules for units with new models.


Having been involved in developing and writing some of those rules, it is absolutely the case, expensive new plastic-injection moulded kits must sell... sales staff have sales targets to meet and new releases are the backbone of this... rules design is a vital tool. So, you get an arms race upwards... and nobody is interested in creating anything like rank and file troops, why would they be? Everything has special rules to give it it's edge, no units play the game using the basic game rules.

The game that has taken this approach to a whole new level is X-Wing. They are pushing models and rules combos like crack-cocaine. We all love Star Wars, but the game isn't a wargame... like Magic cards, it's not how you play so much as it's about spending power.Great model, if you happen to be the owners of FFG...
Last edited by Brodir on 13 Jul 2017, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Brodir
Dr No
 
Posts: 1281

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Ray » 13 Jul 2017

I suppose what those companies may be trying to do is give GW followers a historical game system that is familiar.
And those are businesses with a lot of overheads that need to make money,that being said,they do what they need to to stay in business.
User avatar
Ray
Kananga
 
Posts: 5107
Medals: 6
Armour Campaigner (1) Terrain2 Campaigner (1) Recce campaigner (1) Ambulance campaigner (1) quick campaigner (1) 2015 build campaigner (1)

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Brodir » 13 Jul 2017

Of course, businesses must make money as matter of survival. Most of those profits though go to the individual owners, but often not as much as people would imagine, given the huge overheads larger companies have. Selling cheap Chinese plastic to wealthy (middle class) westerners with disposable income has it's costs. Still, those owners are mostly now multi-millionaires. That's the model, you can see why others would want to follow the same path! ;)
User avatar
Brodir
Dr No
 
Posts: 1281

Next

Return to Battlegroup Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Capitaine Coignet and 8 guests