Min Maxing in BG?

Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Troy » 13 Jul 2017

Thanks to all on this thread.

I had been looking forward to the new upgrade to the other WWII. Then I saw how they were structuring their business to emulate the Warhammer model. Once they added in their additional levels of meta-list-building with the advent of their new cards, I knew the scales in their model had tipped too far for me.

The game is what I'm interested in. Strategy on the table, combined with the (usually bad) luck of the dice is what makes a game fun for me.

I'm glad to have found BG, and I'll be working to get it introduced to our local gaming club. There are a few others in the area that play it, and I hope to meet with them soon, and see if we can pull the less tourney oriented players away from the other game from time to time.
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Piers » 13 Jul 2017

Good luck Troy, any queries ask away mate. :thumbsup:
 ‘Landed. Killed Germans. F***ed off.’ - Major Anders Lassen's operational report to the Admiralty.
'...its not a realistic expectation, that you can use a tank as a sort of big 'fruit-squashing' machine' - Woz
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby dead1 » 14 Jul 2017

Brodir wrote:
The game that has taken this approach to a whole new level is X-Wing. They are pushing models and rules combos like crack-cocaine. We all love Star Wars, but the game isn't a wargame... like Magic cards, it's not how you play so much as it's about spending power.Great model, if you happen to be the owners of FFG...


Damn shame as it was a good casual game. I have to say the last couple of times I've played it, I've felt lost because of how complex some of these special rule combos are getting. Lots of Warmachine style chain linking of powers - of course this promotes those sales as you have to buy all relevant units to get the combo!

It was all good when it was a few generic A/B/X/Y wings against a few generic TIE/TIE interceptors with the odd "flavour unit" thrown in ala Han or Luke or Darth Vader.
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby kustenjaeger » 14 Jul 2017

Greetings

As regards X-Wing I have plenty of models - even played with some of them - but all in missions (scenarios) and keeping the focus on the basics with plenty of basic fighters plus a few specials from time to time. While as an intellectual exercise it can be quite entertaining to see how some of the weird combinations work I can't see myself playing competitive X-Wing anytime at all.

In contrast I can look at BG and almost anyway I do it, get a list that is historically plausible - as a result I am adding bits and pieces to my 20mm for smaller BG games - for example French 1940 (as well as playing CoC) and will employ my 15mm (also used for IABSM and BF WW2) for larger BG games.

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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby zippyzed zoom » 15 Jul 2017

I have been accused of meta gaming after a game of BG. Although my opponent didn't use that definition. Sparing the details, it was a most uncomfortable experience, but thankfully has only happened once. He proposed he had lost from the start because of some magical BG formula I had found not the fact he had an unbalanced army list. Basically it doesn't matter how big or ferocious that tank may be, its a sitting duck without infantry support, and therein lay his problem. It is also testament to BG's ability to create historical results by stymieing such choices with well lets say 'Minefield' chit or infantry on reserve move carrying AT weapons. I also noticed as a Flames of Hammer player, how mechanical his dice rolling was and his inability to engage in the narrative of BG. Its great for that. Why did I only draw a 1BR chit for that Tiger II and that MMG crew drew a 5BR chit? Because that Tiger II commander was an arrogant so and so and Fritz the gunner assistant was the lovable joker in the platoon.

Way back in the 80's GW stores and magazines allowed you to peruse all sorts of 'other games' but now they are sterile places basically only offering two products. Its like going to a supermarket and only finding solent green in solid or liquid form! I can't emphasize my annoyance enough when they shut everything else out. Well Yay! for them they made a pretty penny but back then kids without the internet it was really hard to find 'different' ideas and products.

May I just say what a pleasure it is to find a rule set that is simple in an elegant way yet nuanced enough to create historical results and a wonderful narrative.
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Arcrave » 15 Jul 2017

Troy wrote:Thanks Piers:
I had one player, known for his King Tiger and Elefant lists explain his min/maxing this way: "I try to take away as many of my opponent's abilities to Save his own teams, or neutralize as many of his forces (eg a 6 pdr trying to penetrate a KT) as possible." He wanted to be as close to winning as possible before figures hit the table.
:yahoo:


It feels surreal to find myself mentioned. :blink:
I run a tiger or elefant in this game since I like heavy tanks and only have kursk. BG doesn't have a meta as far as I have seen in the extremely small group I play with. Sure an elefant is resilient and eats soviet tanks for breakfast, but I have had it kill a soviet t34 for first blood, only for my opponent's morale draw to tell me that the loader took all of the shells out to make room for his stash of looted vodka. The game makes sure that nothing is invulnerable.
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Piers » 15 Jul 2017

Yer... those alcoholic loaders get me too... :grin:
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Greebs » 15 Jul 2017

Erm... low ammo chit doesn't apply to vehicles with an ammo track...

Though just yesterday my opponent was grumbling about the Comissars letting a gun crew get away with buggering off 'to find ammo' while standing right next to a supply truck :lol:
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Piers » 15 Jul 2017

No... it used too in KGN though Sam.

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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Arcrave » 16 Jul 2017

Rereading the paragraph, I see that now. I could of really used the pachyderm that battle.
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby dead1 » 16 Jul 2017

Arcrave wrote:
Troy wrote:Thanks Piers:
I had one player, known for his King Tiger and Elefant lists explain his min/maxing this way: "I try to take away as many of my opponent's abilities to Save his own teams, or neutralize as many of his forces (eg a 6 pdr trying to penetrate a KT) as possible." He wanted to be as close to winning as possible before figures hit the table.
:yahoo:


It feels surreal to find myself mentioned. :blink:
I run a tiger or elefant in this game since I like heavy tanks and only have kursk. BG doesn't have a meta as far as I have seen in the extremely small group I play with. Sure an elefant is resilient and eats soviet tanks for breakfast, but I have had it kill a soviet t34 for first blood, only for my opponent's morale draw to tell me that the loader took all of the shells out to make room for his stash of looted vodka. The game makes sure that nothing is invulnerable.


1. Wargaming is a social contract. Sure play to win but if every single game is a turkey shoot then it isn't fun for one player. BR chit randomness isn't really a tactic to counter his T-34s dying in droves to something he can't hurt without a lot of luck.

2. You have BG Kursk so you know it features other German tanks too - Panzer III/IV/V/StuGs, Sturmpanzer IVs etc.

Surely you could sometimes humour your opponent by leaving the rare as hens teeth Tigers or even rarer Elephants at home sometimes.

3. History is your friend. Elephants had massive problems fighting through the layers of minefields or defending from infantry. They weren't used as stationary pillboxes but rather offensively.

So the Germans should be attacking and the Russians should be able to utilise extensive minefields and fortifications. A lot of Russian tanks were dug in too.

Tigers are a bit more problematic thematically. They did face the waves of Soviet tanks at Kursk. Still your average Kraut tank is a Panzer III or IV (and if you are fielding Infantry Divisions a StuG or Marder).

Tigers can be kept for special occasions or as centrepieces for big games, historical scenarios or key campaign games.

4. Mix up missions - breakthrough's, recce screens, bridge assaults etc. Remember Germans are generally attacking unless you are playing something else post Kursk. This can limit Tigers effectiveness especially if they have to assault enemy lines.
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Re: Min Maxing in BG?

Postby Arcrave » 16 Jul 2017

Tigers and elefant are what helped draw me into historical wargaming. I started with a tiger company and spread out from there. It's not about effectiveness, it is that I like heavy tanks, flamethrowers ,and the pz2. In FoW, they are amazing. In battlegroup, not so much. I still run them because I like them.
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